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Acorn Arcade forums: News and features: The Vigay will never abandon RISC OS [Updated]

The Vigay will never abandon RISC OS [Updated]

Posted by Andrew Duffell on 20:07, 12/12/2006 | , , ,
Paul Vigay not using RISC OSThe Paul Vigay has written an article on his website detailing why he will never abandon RISC OS... ever.
From the article:
Most people know my views on RISC OS and also on other, lesser operating systems - so why did I feel inspired to write this short article and share my views with people? Partly in response to an article on The Icon Bar and partly because there are a number of (IMHO) rather ignorant, yet arrogant, PC users inhabiting some of the comp.sys.acorn.* newsgroups who love to complain about RISC OS and prosthetalize about how good PC applications are to their RISC OS counterparts - usually without the skill set or experience to make a valid judgement. I'm all for argument, but when people argue through ignorance or though blinkers, I feel like shouting "Oi! No!" in their faces, but instead I'll settle for writing this article.
Are you in Paul's camp? If the ship went down, would you go with it?
Update: Well, The Vigay received quite a slapping on OSNews, it seems. He's written a follow-up article and published it this evening. OK, that's the update. You can continue slapping now.
- The original article
- Follow-up article

  The Vigay will never abandon RISC OS [Updated]
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Tony Haines Message #95839, posted by Loris at 18:51, 14/12/2006, in reply to message #95796
madbanHa ha, me mine, mwahahahaha
Posts: 1025
I particularly agree with PtV's comments about the progressive reduction in programmability of computers in practice.
What? Install any half-decent Linux distro and without touching the package manager you've got Python and probably a bunch of other languages, all of which wet the top of the head of the archaic BBC BASIC in a stream of liquid in a colour of your choosing.

Sure, you can't disable interrupts or casually poke around the memory map in any trivial fashion, but that's quite possibly for the best if it stops people and their programs from taking the machine down on a whim.
Huh? I think we're thinking of different things. Understanding the memory map and using interrupts are relatively advanced topics. I strongly doubt that the average Windows user has ever written a program of any sort, (since their school days on BBCs or whatever, anyway).
The day the average (PC) user has Linux installed is probably the day that my statement is no longer true.
I should point out that I didn't make any particular claim about BBC BASIC, although I do use and like it, in its place. It does seem to have been a useful stepping stone for most RISC OS users.
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fwibbler Message #95840, posted by fwibbler at 19:13, 14/12/2006, in reply to message #95839

Posts: 320
Using the image in Pauls article, I've just performed the same operation (reduce to 400x300 and save at 60%) using Photofiltre.
The result is 12k in size and (though it is difficult to tell on such a small image) I think the Photofiltre image is better.

Since Photofiltre runs on Windows (not RISCOS sadly) it must mean that WindowsXP is wonderful and RISC OS is crap. (yes, that is sarcasm)

Photofiltre by the way is a free image processor for Windows.
It's not as powerful as something like Photoshop, but it is totally free for home use and very easy to use. (easier than I have found RISC OS software to be)
It seems to be much more powerful than Studio24Pro, but I don't know how how it compares to PhotoDesk. (It's certainly more self explanetary to use than PhotoDesk)

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Andrew Message #95845, posted by andrew at 00:35, 15/12/2006, in reply to message #95800
HandbagHandbag Boi
Posts: 3439
Disclaimer: I've just come back from the pub. |beer|

What's all this talk about gloating?

I can see *no* gloating anywhere on this thread.
Monkeyson was dishing out a good licking of tongues.
Oh come on, that wasn't gloating. If anything, it's masochism on your part.

I supported RISC OS because it was any good (in many ways it still is), and it often provided the best way to solve various problems. But I'm also ready to accept that other platforms are better at some tasks, and I'm willing to give them credit for that.
Hang on a minute, you're getting two things mixed up here. The fact that I want to stay with RISC OS and not abandon it is different from me saying it can do everything. I think PV puts some people off by saying that but I still admire his sentiments of loyalty - there's nothing wrong with that, dangerous or not. You poke fun at things RISC OS can do but that there is not the extent of choice of.

For months (years?) you've been posting threads asking about MP3 players and scanners on the forums, with the conclusion being that it will cost a lot of money to get either device working on your Risc PC, and even then it won't be so hot.
Well months is how long it takes to save up for these things particuarly on RISC OS. Part of asking is keeping the possibilities alive as well.

Your workaround for an MP3 player requires an audio cable and a CD player, resulting in an unorganised collection of unnamed tracks. Your scanning solution involves a primitive and expensive second hand parallel scanner.
STD were offering one via USB. That is a possibility. The MP3 system is just fine by me.

You want to use these devices, but it's not feasible to use RISC OS to do so. What's wrong in admitting that?
Nothing. I have admitted it, on grounds of cost. I don't *want* a PC for the 10th time unless "I absolutely have to"!

Loyalty, like an opinion, is a dangerous thing. Unless it can withstand reasonable questioning, it's meaningless. I'm more than willing to promote RISC OS on its strengths, but you can't solve its weaknesses by pretending they don't exist. To be honest, I've lost faith that they *can* be solved any more.

I can't stubbornly avoid the alternatives any longer. Frankly, life's too short.
[Edited by andrew at 00:36, 15/12/2006]
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Paul Vigay Message #95846, posted by pvigay at 07:35, 15/12/2006, in reply to message #95845

Posts: 200
I think the article had quite the desired effect - that of creating a good discussion. You can be gentle and quiet and sit at the background smugly thinking that I prefer RISC OS and I don't really care about everyone else - they can use whatever they're happy with. However, that's not really moving forward at all.

Or you can jump in, stir things up a bit and then sit back and watch the running around, screaming, jumping up and down etc. :naughty:
The fact is, that since a couple of days ago, several thousand more people know about RISC OS. Sure, some are rabid PC users who have nothing better to do than slag off anything != Microsoft, but there again, even if only 1% are open minded enough to think, "Hmm. what is this RISC OS system. I'll have a closer look" then even if 99% of /them/ have a look and decide "Nah, I'll stick with what I've got" then 1% of 1% is still a net gain for RISC OS.
And from the positive feedback I've received so far, it's a lot more than 1% of 1%. A great many people don't want a computer for games, C++ development, DVD watching (shock horror - a high percentage of 'ordinary home users' use a normal DVD player for that) or some of the more 'geeky' things we all do with computers.
No. They want a computer to send emails, write a letter, organise a few photos (not necessarily publishing grade photo-editing) and general purpose use. For those, RISC OS will cater perfectly - and with a lot less fuss and effort than Windows.
What most people forget is that most of the readers of forums such as TIB and OSNews are pretty technie minded people, so fixing broken PCs or knowing what to do when Microsoft thinks "it knows best" and does something unexpected is second nature to them and they don't flinch at knowing what to do.
In my experience of technical support for the "general public", this is not the case at all. Lots of people are frightened of Windows because they think if they click the wrong button it will all break.
A computer should be your slave, not the other way around. Many, many people are looking for a good alternative to Windows, and there is still time to divert the tide away from Microsoft. I read a survey the other day in a National Paper that said that 40 of the UK population still don't have a computer at home. There is still a *vast* market to tap into, but not necessarily the population of TIB or OSNews - they already know about computers and have already chosen their favourite computer.

Anyway, other than the bickering and ranting on OSNews, most of the actual feedback I've received via RISCOS.org has been positive, and I've potentially made some interesting new friends, so computers aside it's been an interesting week! :)

The fat lady hasn't sung yet, so I'm still fighting the cause. :laugh:

[Edited by pvigay at 07:38, 15/12/2006]
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Paul Vigay Message #95847, posted by pvigay at 07:37, 15/12/2006, in reply to message #95846

Posts: 200
Hmm. How come percentage symbols () don't come out? Anyway, if you don't get any percent symbols, the numbers in the previous comment should be percentages - ie 99 percent, 1 percent etc.

[edit - ahhhh. Looks like something screwy going on. If you preview your message and then post it, all the % symbols disappear, wheras if you just post without previewing first the % symbols appear! Odd!]

[Edited by pvigay at 07:39, 15/12/2006]
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Peter Naulls Message #95861, posted by pnaulls at 16:53, 15/12/2006, in reply to message #95846
Posts: 317
I think the article had quite the desired effect - that of creating a good discussion.
It's done no such thing. It's created a lot of pointless noise, revealed how weak many RISC OS technologies are and generally wasted time. Unless we start addressing and not ignoring the real problems that RISC OS has, instead of glossing over them with BS about JPEG generated, we'll get no where, and RISC OS will remain a laughing stock, quite rightly.
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John Message #95876, posted by mr-mac at 20:54, 15/12/2006, in reply to message #95861
Posts: 148
TBH I can't see him blindly saying risc OS is perfect as a lot of people seem to say...

I am just returning to RISC OS and tbh we could do with a few more people shouting it's virtues...

Yes it has a lot of problems but without users it won't improve at all....

I know lets all slag off it's deficiencies until Risc OS is finally dead and you can all say "told you so"...

Yes a lot of people have had to leave as they can't do the work they need to but if nobody comes back to it then it's all over. I am returning to RISC OS and I hope more follow me so it is worth people doing more development and sorting some of the issues...

As an outsider I think Paul's article and follow-up were reasoned and quite well demonstrated.

Hope everyone has a good Christmas.


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Jason Togneri Message #95890, posted by filecore at 08:47, 16/12/2006, in reply to message #95861

Posts: 3867
I think the article had quite the desired effect - that of creating a good discussion.
It's done no such thing. It's created a lot of pointless noise, revealed how weak many RISC OS technologies are and generally wasted time. Unless we start addressing and not ignoring the real problems that RISC OS has, instead of glossing over them with BS about JPEG generated, we'll get no where, and RISC OS will remain a laughing stock, quite rightly.
It's shown what for many people will be the only public face of RISC OS as a ranting fanatic. I am tempted to sign up for these forums just so that I can post a message saying "Hey, we're not all like this, you know!" :(
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VinceH Message #95893, posted by VincceH at 09:57, 16/12/2006, in reply to message #95890
Lowering the tone since the dawn of time

Posts: 1600
It's shown what for many people will be the only public face of RISC OS as a ranting fanatic. I am tempted to sign up for these forums just so that I can post a message saying "Hey, we're not all like this, you know!" :(
The thread on OSNews refers back to this one, and IIRC someone has already pointed out that a lot of us are just as critical of Paul's article as they are.

Of course, someone else has pointed out that many of us aren't using RISC OS machines either (at all in one or two cases, and just not as much in others), which may or be a reason for that. :)
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Paolo Fabio Zaino Message #96343, posted by Paolo Zaino at 14:35, 29/12/2006, in reply to message #95861
Posts: 61
I agree with Peter Naulls...

RISC OS needs improvements and I believe that the RISC OS Open Project (http://www.riscosopen.org/content/) can be a good solution to collaborate, everybody, to the improvement process of the system. I think so because without being able to see the OS's source code (and the OS's CVS, or what stuff they used to versioning the system, and its internal documentation) nobody here can fix or solve the OS problems except ROL and / or CASTLE's developers (if they wants and / or they are able to do this and / or the actual structure of the OS source makes these changes possible).

For all of us, if we really wants to help RISC OS then we may join the "ROS Open project" or we may gives our help to who still makes software for ROS, for example, helping them to test their applications, or helping them with language translation of the software and so on...

I hope that my message does not look offensive to Mr. Vigay, but real MCSE's staff makes Windows to works very good and also on "Mission Critical Situations" (his words could sounds a bit offensive to who, like me, beyond to work as SE and AD, teaches to persons who wants to obtain MCSE/MCAD's certifications and / or Linux's Certifications). I would like to remembers to Mr. Vigay that:

1) "SE" stays for "System Engineer" and not for "Windows XP technitian" ( http://www.microsoft.com/uk/learning/apply/certifications/mcse/default.mspx for to have all info about it).

2) Web sites can be "displayed" faster or slower. It depends by the HTML page's Structure that compose the web site, by the number of images and their size, by plugins used, by servers who furnish the HTTP service and by a "media" between server line bandwith and client line, plus client browser HTML page "rendering" speed... so it really don't matter with "what" you had build your web pages.

3) Windows works fine (if SA use correct drivers and well configured it) on many different architectures, and RISC OS have problems with different kind of devices (see Kinetik UDMA, see View Finder and Powertec SCSI cards and more)

4) Windows furnish (as Linux does too) "Services" (deamons in Linux) that we are still waiting to see on ROS and they helps so much into developing software and applications

5) Security... does we needs to talk about that on ROS?????

6) Ok you don't like to have a ROS Server and ROS Client system because it looks like a cold office machine??? well then, what about the multimedia and home control devices improvements that ROS should have had??? I am sorry but i am still confused about what is the ROS marketing (because, if I can be honest, at the moment ROS just seems to be something more user friendly than CISCO IOS for routers and firewalls and something less powerfull of Windows XP for home and office use).

Dear ROS USERS, please try to spend our "energies" into more "productive" stuff for the OS as many Linux people does every days, as many Windows people does every days too.

If there is guys here that really would likes to understand OS's planning and development I may suggest you tons of books titles to study and from where to learn how to help our favorite OS for real and with serious discussions. This would be a great way to spend "energies" for ROS and for your own future.

A simple, but good, example of how to use personal energy to help RISC OS in 5 steps:

1) To learn C and C++ programming. There is a lot of books (on-line too and free) about "to learn programming in ANSI C and C++ language" ( I may suggest also to read, after C/C++, "The art of computer programming" KNUTH for who really never developed software).

2) To Improve personal software development techniques reading the great book of Steve McConnell (ISBN: 88-04-54034-6) printed by Microsoft press about coding enginery; Many developers should read it to improve their way to imagine, to write and to test their software code...

3) RISC OS programmer's guide to read and study as a "Bible" :D

4) There is very good and "easy-to-read" books of Professor Andrew S. Tanenbaum (the man who made "minix" OS that was used by Torvalds to make Linux)

5) A lot of practice to do on your RISC OS computer


I hope that this message was helpfull for anybody and I wish to give to all ROS users and developers merry christmas and a happy 2007 year! :D
RISC OS Projects: https://github.com/RISC-OS-Community
RISC OS Blog: https://paolozaino.wordpress.com/category/risc-os/
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Acorn Arcade forums: News and features: The Vigay will never abandon RISC OS [Updated]