Acorn Arcade forums: A Cost Analysis of Windows Vista Content Protection

Message #97898, posted by Phlamethrower at 15:37, 31/1/2007, in reply to message #97897

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Posts: 15100

And you didn't think to tell us about it at the time?

Think of all the extra publicity we could have given your website!

Honestly, you call yourself a blogger?

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Message #97907, posted by SimonC at 16:54, 31/1/2007, in reply to message #97898

Right on, Commander!

Posts: 398

Interesting reading all the same, and stuff that isn't going to bother in the slightest everyone who'll go out and buy Vista regardless of anything, especially when it ends up on almost every new computer whether you want it to or not.

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Tony Haines

Message #97917, posted by Loris at 19:14, 31/1/2007, in reply to message #97907

Ha ha, me mine, mwahahahaha
Posts: 1025

Interesting reading all the same, and stuff that isn't going to bother in the slightest everyone who'll go out and buy Vista regardless of anything, especially when it ends up on almost every new computer whether you want it to or not.

But then we can laugh at them for not being able to view stuff properly.

...Ok, so we won't be able to see it either, but they'll have paid for it.

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Phil Mellor

Message #97931, posted by monkeyson2 at 11:23, 1/2/2007, in reply to message #97917

Please don't let them make me be a monkey butler

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Posts: 12380

The BBC has picked up on this now:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6319845.stm

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Message #97933, posted by Phlamethrower at 12:02, 1/2/2007, in reply to message #97931

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I'm sat here trying to fathom why HD content protection has to be so ludicrously complex.

Surely instead of crippling the OS to allow the CPU/GPU to do the decoding, they could have instead insisted that everything goes through a dedicated hardware decoder? The kind of hardware decoder that will become dirt cheap, because it will be built into every standalone HD-DVD/bluray player? The kind of hardware decoder that could easily be integrated into modern graphics cards, since they're already capable of decoding most/all of a HD stream?

All it needs is support from the graphics card for 'private' video overlays (Which would be inaccessible to anything else except the HD decoder), similar support from the audio card to protect the audio stream, and possibly a method of reading data directly from the HD-DVD/bluray disc instead of asking the OS to fetch it and then reading it from memory.

If they're so worried about naughty software stealing the decoded data, just don't use any software! It's that simple!

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Message #97944, posted by filecore at 13:17, 1/2/2007, in reply to message #97933

The Iron Lord
and coming soon:
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Posts: 3868

If they're so worried about naughty software stealing the decoded data, just don't use any software! It's that simple!

Do you remember (RISC OS and PC) dongles? "Somebody will steal our software! Oh noes!" followed by "Let's make a hardware dongle that goes on the parallel port!" followed by "Somebody hacked a module that emulates our hardware dongle!"

This happened with Impression, among others. Ovation Pro? I have a number of old RISC OS dongles lying around somewhere, gathering dust. The same has happened since and will happen again. You stick a hardware decoder on a piece of hardware, somebody, somewhere, before too long, will crack/decode/emulate it, or else figure out which to pins/jumpers to short (unlocking the multipliers by shorting the pins on certain models of Athlon XPs, anyone?).

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Message #97946, posted by Phlamethrower at 13:23, 1/2/2007, in reply to message #97944

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You stick a hardware decoder on a piece of hardware, somebody, somewhere, before too long, will crack/decode/emulate it, or else figure out which to pins/jumpers to short (unlocking the multipliers by shorting the pins on certain models of Athlon XPs, anyone?).

Yes - everything can be cracked. But ultimately hardware is more secure than software, and a hardware decoder in a PC will provide the same level of protection as the hardware decoder in a standalone player. Crippling your OS so you can decode using a less secure method (software) is a stupid move to make.

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Message #97949, posted by SimonC at 14:53, 1/2/2007, in reply to message #97946

Right on, Commander!

Posts: 398

Yes - everything can be cracked. But ultimately hardware is more secure than software

So it's all ultimately pointless anyway. Either "solution" might prevent kids from giving copies to a few of their friends, or the odd copy going around the office, but some systems screw up the legitimate (i.e. most of what the article is on about), they all encourage locking in to a proprietary system, thus helping to drive out any alternatives if you've already got a large share (i.e. typical MS behaviour), and none of them stop large-scale criminal counterfeiters, who must be loving the opportunities that'll be presented to them by Vista.

So, the large scale copying can't be stopped, and most of the small scale stuff could be by something far simpler and less intrusive. What's the point?

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Message #97950, posted by filecore at 15:01, 1/2/2007, in reply to message #97946

The Iron Lord
and coming soon:
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Posts: 3868

a hardware decoder in a PC will provide the same level of protection as the hardware decoder in a standalone player.

And we all remember how successful DVD region encoding was, don't we? ;-)

Crippling your OS so you can decode using a less secure method (software) is a stupid move to make.

Indeed. 'nuff said.

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Message #97952, posted by Phlamethrower at 15:03, 1/2/2007, in reply to message #97949

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What's the point?

Precisely.

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Message #97953, posted by Phlamethrower at 15:09, 1/2/2007, in reply to message #97950

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And we all remember how successful DVD region encoding was, don't we? ;-)

DVD region encoding is complete insanity, considering that you can buy multi-region players. And even if multi-region players didn't exist, you'd still be able to buy an extra drive for your PC for around the same cost as a movie.

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Message #97955, posted by filecore at 15:13, 1/2/2007, in reply to message #97953

The Iron Lord
and coming soon:
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For all you Vista-watchers out there, this is quite a fun analysis: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/02/01/vista_waiting_game/

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GuestX

Message #97989, posted by guestx at 11:36, 2/2/2007, in reply to message #97931

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Posts: 102

The BBC has picked up on this now:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6319845.stm

From the people who want to share the fruits of the licence fee only with Microsoft DRM strapped on:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbctrust/news/press-releases/31-01-2007.html

What are the odds that (1) they never make it available in anything other than Windows Media format, and (2) they refuse to see the fraud in DRMing stuff that licence fee payers have actually commissioned and paid for?

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Adrian Lees

Message #98036, posted by adrianl at 22:34, 2/2/2007, in reply to message #97944

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This happened with Impression, among others. Ovation Pro?

Did anybody hack the protection system used on Ovation Pro?

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Message #98059, posted by filecore at 13:59, 3/2/2007, in reply to message #98036

The Iron Lord
and coming soon:
Haunted House

Posts: 3868

This happened with Impression, among others. Ovation Pro?
Did anybody hack the protection system used on Ovation Pro?

I don't know. I just put it there because I think I had a memory of an Ovation Pro dongle. I could be mistaken.

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Message #98114, posted by SimonC at 10:00, 5/2/2007, in reply to message #97989

Right on, Commander!

Posts: 398

What are the odds that (1) they never make it available in anything other than Windows Media format, and (2) they refuse to see the fraud in DRMing stuff that licence fee payers have actually commissioned and paid for?

Their defence will (fairly simply) be that it's to prevent others who haven't paid the licence fee from getting it, although quite what the point of it in anything downloadable without paying directly for is is beyond me.

There is a paragraph in there suggesting that it shouldn't be an MS-only system.

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Phil Mellor

Message #98115, posted by monkeyson2 at 10:26, 5/2/2007, in reply to message #98114

Please don't let them make me be a monkey butler

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Posts: 12380

There is a paragraph in there suggesting that it shouldn't be an MS-only system.

It's highly likely that it will be MS-only, unless they receive feedback from their public consultation suggesting otherwise.

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GuestX

Message #98152, posted by guestx at 20:04, 5/2/2007, in reply to message #98115

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Posts: 102

There is a paragraph in there suggesting that it shouldn't be an MS-only system.
It's highly likely that it will be MS-only, unless they receive feedback from their public consultation suggesting otherwise.

Yes, the BBC Executive want to mandate Windows XP plus Microsoft DRM Player, although I'm slightly surprised that they didn't insist on Vista given recent reports on their "impartiality" with respect to the Vista launch. Apparently, the BBC Trust want cross-platform things within "a reasonable timeframe", although that could mean Real's Spyware Player for all we know. And they all love their DRM.

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http://www.tgdaily.com/2007/02/02/windows_vista_reader_feedback/index.html

Message #98171, posted by filecore at 12:53, 6/2/2007, in reply to message #98152

The Iron Lord
and coming soon:
Haunted House

Posts: 3868

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GuestX

Message #98180, posted by guestx at 14:32, 6/2/2007, in reply to message #98171

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http://www.tgdaily.com/2007/02/02/windows_vista_reader_feedback/index.html

Even though everyone flamed Linux for being hard to install, Windows never provided a nice installation experience (and even old Red Hat distributions surpassed their contemporary Windows counterparts). That people are shocked by the bloat and awkwardness should be old news to everyone else.

But end-user installations and upgrades isn't what the whole Vista thing is about (nor was it the Windows way). Soon enough, anyone buying a PC will be given it pre-installed whether they like it or not - that's how these things get "adoption", or rather it's how people are coerced into using it.

The only end-users installing Windows are fanboys or people unfortunate enough to be restoring broken systems without having the freedom to choose something better.

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Message #98224, posted by SimonC at 12:13, 7/2/2007, in reply to message #98180

Right on, Commander!

Posts: 398

But end-user installations and upgrades isn't what the whole Vista thing is about (nor was it the Windows way). Soon enough, anyone buying a PC will be given it pre-installed whether they like it or not - that's how these things get "adoption", or rather it's how people are coerced into using it.

Which is why, sadly, Vista will be successful for Microsoft.

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Message #98596, posted by Phlamethrower at 17:30, 14/2/2007, in reply to message #98224

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http://flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=151250154&size=o

Ugh!

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Message #98624, posted by SimonC at 09:50, 15/2/2007, in reply to message #98596

Right on, Commander!

Posts: 398

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6362069.stm

Looks like a few people in the business might have a hint of a brain in their head, but alas there's no sign of them acting on it.

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